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 FGTR reissues 
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
Tulyar wrote:
Image
http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=279207

The question is, dvdgenesis, how are you defining 'bootleg'? I assume you are joking in the way you write off everything Argentinian... :D
In my opinion, WEA had publishing rights to You Can't Hurry Love, and in some Spanish speaking countries they put a Spanish translation of the title on the sleeve and label. Of course, I don't know this for sure, but it seems reasonably likely.


I couldn't see an image on that page, but I have seen the picture sleeve for that release via the link I posted earlier... that's how I was able to describe it in my post.

I'm not joking about everything I've seen coming from Argentina being a bootleg... I suppose there may be some "legitimate" items from that country, but I've yet to find them. Anyone who considers something "official" simply because it has the record company logo and a catalog number or barcode has a lot to learn about counterfeit recordings.

You're right, though... the "Tomate..." text is simply a Spanish translation, which as I mentioned appears alongside the original English title rather than replacing it. I'm not disputing that the single you point out is potentially genuine... what I'm saying is that it doesn't represent an example of a title being changed for release elsewhere. If you're counting alternate translations, I'll modify my previous answer to "all of them... every time a single is released in a non-English-speaking country, an alternate translation is typically printed along with the original English title."

I'll say it again... I am very interested in seeing an actual occurrence of a song or album title having been altered for a non-English-speaking market, but I have yet to see anything that even suggests that such a thing has happened. I'm pretty sure that the legalities of music publishing require that songs, and possibly entire albums, retain their original title. Therefore, when you a see a release that does NOT display the original title alongside a non-English translation, it is very likely to be counterfeit. I'm surprised you weren't aware of how prevalent piracy is in areas like Brazil, Spain and Argentina. Same goes for Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Korea, China, etc. If there ARE legitimate items produced in those countries, the deluge of counterfeits has made it nearly impossible to identify them. Things like hologram stickers, etc. are more likely to indicate a counterfeit than a genuine item, especially if the item originates from Argentina. If you don't believe that, I could certainly point you toward some eBay sellers that would love a new customer. ;)


Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:17 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
Quote:
Anyone who considers something "official" simply because it has the record company logo and a catalog number or barcode has a lot to learn about counterfeit recordings.


This is a valid point, but I doubt any of us are that naive.

I still would be interested to know how you can tell the difference between a bootleg and a domestic release that is approved by the record company (apart from the obvious misprints and/or hologram stickers).

I have several releases that are exclusive to the french market (my own country), and no-one seems to question them because France is not a country where fakes are prevalent. On the other hand, my Argentinian Turn It On Again/Heathaze 7" has a Charisma label with no obvious misprints, song names in Spanish with the regular english title just underneath, and I can't see anything about it that obviously suggests it's a fake.

I'm not sure how you can come to such a broad conclusion that fishy country equals fishy release.


Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:38 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
Well, it's just as you say... nobody questions a French release unless there's something obviously amiss because France isn't notorious for that sort of thing. In the same way, fishy country just means probably fishy release. Obviously I'd have to see it to make any kind of judgment, and sometimes even a photo isn't enough to really determine whether it's genuine or not. However, the Toque Invisible release I saw on eBay was an obvious bootleg.

Again, my point is only that "Non-English Translation/Original Title" doesn't qualify as "title altered for non-English market". I'd definitely like to hear from an authority on music publishing as to whether there are legal problems with trying to publish a song written in English with an altered title. The TARZAN soundtrack would seem to be a good test of this theory, but since all the lyrics have been changed, it's a new song in the same way that Weird Al's Eat It isn't the same as Beat It... I don't think the fact that the songs are still sung by Phil makes any difference.

With all that said, I absolutely LOVE imports and even, ahem, "unofficial" releases... they add variety to my collection, and it's fun to see how unusual they can get. Some of the ones I've seen get pretty creative when they don't have to adhere to the style guide set by the record company.


Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:46 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
Saw this today - i thought i would pass it along:

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/first-genesis-album-1129-2011/


Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:59 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
artsiistra wrote:
Saw this today - i thought i would pass it along:

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/first-genesis-album-1129-2011/


Awesome, thanks for the link! Interesting that they showed the cover of the Music Club release, yet still talked about the reissue like it was a new thing. Well, I guess if it's Genesis actually behind the reissue I suppose it is a first.

I actually saw yet another reissue recently, from Repertoire. I like the fact that it uses the German "flower mask" cover, but apparently it's a Digipak, and I'm not fond of those. Hopefully it'll have a standard booklet inside with the same image on the front.

Can't see how they could top the EDSEL release, but if includes a 5.1 DVD and/or a reissue interview, it'll be well worth buying. I haven't liked Nick Davis's remixes of the previous albums, but I'd buy this just for the sake of it being yet another FGTR reissue.


Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:46 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
I followed the link to genesis-music.com but didn't see anything there about FGTR. Is there any evidence that Nick Davis is involved?

For that matter, do we know how the first album was actually recorded? Did they use multitrack tapes? Robert Fripp has an essay on one of the Giles, Giles & Fripp releases explaining how low-budget bands managed to mix large numbers of tracks without a real multitrack machine. Basically, you use a four-track or eight-track tape over and over, adding instruments two at a time. If they used that method, there wouldn't be any way to do a 2011 remix.

Once upon a time there was confusion....

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Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:43 am
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
Grateful to artsiistra for the link, but I don't see anything there to suggest it is anything other than yet another FGTR reissue (I wonder how many there have been - any guesses?).

I doubt Genesis or Nick Davis or Hit 'n' Run have anything to do with this reissue, any more than any of the others. There is nothing on the genesis-music.com site about it. Don't forget, Jonathan King owns the rights to FGTR, not Genesis. And the regular reissues are the only way he makes any money.

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Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:31 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
LOL @ B5... yep, that's quite an appropriate line where the FGTR album is concerned in general.

I do believe that the album was recorded using a 4- or 8-track machine with the technique that Fripp described, so a true 5.1 mix is probably not possible. However, even if just the strings are on a separate track than the main instrumentation and vocals, it would be possible to do a 5.1 mix with the main stuff up front and the strings in the back. It's not likely to be exactly like the previous Nick Davis remixes, but something in a similar vein could be done.

It's definitely possible that someone just got news of yet another reissue (possibly even the Repertoire version, which may not be coming to the U.S. until next year, if at all) and simply assumed that it was an official release from the band. My thought was that the band ('s management) finally decided to do their own reissue, and just as with all the other companies that have asked to release the album, King took their money and authorized another reissue. It's also possible that since King has made so much off of the many reissues that the band finally persuaded him that it was time they got to profit off it, too.

It could very well have nothing to do with the band themselves or their management, because I'd guess that most music journalists have no idea that this album has been reissued so many times without the involvement of the band, and most often without even the participation of the original label (an unusual situation, to say the least). I'm hopeful that it is being released with the band's blessing and at least with a bonus interview. We'll see, I guess.

Might be picking up the Repertoire version soon, and I'll be sure to post/complain about it here whenever I do get it.


Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:49 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
dvdgenesis wrote:
It's also possible that since King has made so much off of the many reissues that the band finally persuaded him that it was time they got to profit off it, too.

When you say 'persuaded' I assume you are talking about a financial incentive! You don't really imagine King would hand over his 'goose that laid the golden egg' out of the goodness of his heart, do you? :lol:
I also assume that you are aware of Jonathan King's recent history in terms of his period spent on the inside of one of Her Majesty's penal establishments....
Whereas in the 70s and 80s he was a regular on British TV and radio, nowadays no-one would touch him with a very long pole. People don't play his records on the radio now, so sales of FGTR in its many guises provide (I would guess) his largest source of income.

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:26 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
Tulyar wrote:
dvdgenesis wrote:
It's also possible that since King has made so much off of the many reissues that the band finally persuaded him that it was time they got to profit off it, too.

When you say 'persuaded' I assume you are talking about a financial incentive! You don't really imagine King would hand over his 'goose that laid the golden egg' out of the goodness of his heart, do you? :lol:
I also assume that you are aware of Jonathan King's recent history in terms of his period spent on the inside of one of Her Majesty's penal establishments....
Whereas in the 70s and 80s he was a regular on British TV and radio, nowadays no-one would touch him with a very long pole. People don't play his records on the radio now, so sales of FGTR in its many guises provide (I would guess) his largest source of income.


Well, yes, I'm aware of all that. I didn't think my statement was all that unclear, but I'll elaborate. Either the band or their management sent King an e-mail saying "Look, we were the ones who played and sang on the bloody album and we got a pittance to do so. Now you've made a career off of selling the rights to reissue this somewhat embarrassing chapter in our past, somewhat sullying our reputation in the bargain, so we think it's time the fans got a proper release of it with some historical context and our side of the story, so how's about being a good chap and playing along?" It's also possible that lawyers were involved.

My other theory would be completely supported by what you point out about King mostly living off reissues. I postulated that just like any other entity who came forward with an interest in reissuing the album, he would have taken money from Hit & Run or whomever just as quickly, so perhaps they finally became interested in doing their own reissue and paid King's ransom... so to speak. ;)

Um, and nowhere did I say that he turned it over to anyone... it would have been a temporary licensing thing where they could press so many copies of a reissue, but he retained full rights to the material.

...and, above all, it could have been a confused journalist who heard about a reissue of the album (again, possibly the Repertoire one) and simply assumed Genesis were behind it.


Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:12 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
dvdgenesis wrote:
Well, yes, I'm aware of all that. I didn't think my statement was all that unclear, but I'll elaborate. Either the band or their management sent King an e-mail saying "Look, we were the ones who played and sang on the bloody album and we got a pittance to do so. Now you've made a career off of selling the rights to reissue this somewhat embarrassing chapter in our past, somewhat sullying our reputation in the bargain, so we think it's time the fans got a proper release of it with some historical context and our side of the story, so how's about being a good chap and playing along?" It's also possible that lawyers were involved.

My other theory would be completely supported by what you point out about King mostly living off reissues. I postulated that just like any other entity who came forward with an interest in reissuing the album, he would have taken money from Hit & Run or whomever just as quickly, so perhaps they finally became interested in doing their own reissue and paid King's ransom... so to speak. ;)

Um, and nowhere did I say that he turned it over to anyone... it would have been a temporary licensing thing where they could press so many copies of a reissue, but he retained full rights to the material.

...and, above all, it could have been a confused journalist who heard about a reissue of the album (again, possibly the Repertoire one) and simply assumed Genesis were behind it.


I postulate that that's completely wrong.


Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:00 am
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
dvdgenesis wrote:
...and, above all, it could have been a confused journalist who heard about a reissue of the album (again, possibly the Repertoire one) and simply assumed Genesis were behind it.

Personally I think this is by far the most likely explanation for the recent brief article in Classic Rock that "Genesis are to have their 1969 debut album re-released next year".

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Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:39 am
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
Tulyar wrote:
dvdgenesis wrote:
...and, above all, it could have been a confused journalist who heard about a reissue of the album (again, possibly the Repertoire one) and simply assumed Genesis were behind it.

Personally I think this is by far the most likely explanation for the recent brief article in Classic Rock that "Genesis are to have their 1969 debut album re-released next year".


Yep... my money would be on that as well. Would love to be proven wrong next year, though. ;)


Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:25 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
<sigh> Case closed, it would seem:

http://www.classicrockmagazine.com/news ... -reissued/

That's the Classic Rock post linked to in the Gibson article. It is indeed the Repertoire version as I surmised... the Gibson blogger just took "Genesis are to have their 1969 debut album re-released next year." to mean that the band themselves were behind the release.

Well, I'll say it again... I'm glad Repertoire are using the German "flower mask" cover so I won't have to buy the LP, but I'm not crazy about the Digipak packaging. I've seen it described on eBay as a "mini-LP" but I'm not sure that's accurate. The PG Remasters were described as "mini-LP"s as well, but those were really just Digipaks. Guess we'll see... I should be buying this soon.


Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:41 pm
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Post Re: FGTR reissues
Well, the Repertoire CD arrived today, and for the most part I'm quite pleased. It is in fact a sort of "mini-LP" package rather than the Digipak it's being described as by many sellers. It's not actually a "real" mini-LP in terms of the slightly-oversized Japanese ones, but more of a two-pocket folding cardboard sleeve. One pocket holds the disc (in a paper sleeve, which I'm not thrilled with, but it's better than the bare disc rattling around in a cardboard pocket) and the other holds the booklet. I was hoping there would be a booklet, so I'm happy about that since it gives me the option to replace the cardboard packaging with a Viewpak, but I'm a bit disappointed that the front of the booklet doesn't carry over the LP artwork. It's actually printed on the disc, so I suppose that will do and I can just put the disc and booklet in a black Viewpak. This is of course just my personal preference, but since I don't have any particular affinity for the "flower mask" cover (i.e., I never owned that version on vinyl) and it's not particularly attractive to me, it won't be a big deal to toss the cardboard sleeve.

I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but the booklet seems rather well done, with extensive liner notes (including lyrics, though it remains to be seen how accurate they are) and photos. It's almost as if someone tried to give this album the "remaster" treatment (at least in terms of packaging), but somehow didn't understand that the flower mask image wasn't the album's original cover. I still maintain that the EDSEL release is by far the best one, but this is a very nice release as well.

I've actually just bought two more reissues from a UK seller, and I'll post about those when they arrive.


Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:03 pm
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