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 want your opinions on various bootlegs 
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
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Post want your opinions on various bootlegs
In another post I mentioned that I'm now picking up a few audio boots, since I've never owned any. That being the case, I'll be posting every so often in this thread with details of particular releases I own and asking anyone else who has them what they think of them, and most importantly, whether there are better versions of the same show I should check out.

The first one has a blue cover with GENESIS in big yellow 3-D letters above the word "LIVE" in quotes and a late-'70s/early-'80s photo of Mike, Phil and Tony under some clouds. I wasn't able to find a photo of it online, but I guess I can try to post a scan of the cover later if images are allowed. Here's the track list if it helps at all:

Dodo
Abacab
Follow You Follow Me
No Reply At All
In The Cage
The Cinema Show
Afterglow
Duke's End
Behind The Lines
Misunderstanding
Man On The Corner
Turn It On Again
Dance On A Volcano
Los Endos

I don't have the date or venue for the gig, but apparently it was 1982. The CD was released in Germany in 1992 on the Mistral label.

Does anyone have this? If so, what are your thoughts? Should I maybe look for another specific boot that is a better-quality version of the same show? Any major flaws in this release I should be aware of, like missing tracks played at the show, or dropouts, etc.?

I guess the most important piece of information I need is the date and venue... if anyone is familiar with this release and knows where and when the show took place, that would be greatly appreciated. I couldn't find it in the database, but I'll double-check the packaging to see if that info might be printed on it somewhere. I would also be willing to trade CD-R copies of it if anyone needs it.


Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:22 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
Wow... not everybody at once. ;)

I wanted to follow up, since I finally listened to this disc. Having watched the Three Sides Live video and heard the album many times, it sounds like these are the NY/England performances, and they seem to be soundboard recordings. With the exception of Los Endos, these could be identical tracks to what's on the CD and video releases of TSL. Not a problem really... it's nice to have just as a collectible.

I also wanted to ask everyone's thoughts on Rock Theatre... it's not really a bootleg I guess, but I wanted to see if anyone could tell me if the tracks are all album cuts, from live albums, or what. I have had the LP for years, and I think this is just stuff from the albums, but it has been a LONG time since I've listened to it. The one thing I notice about the CD is that it's missing the "REFLECTION" logo, which is a bit disappointing since I plan to get rid of my LP copy, but it's not really that noticeable an omission.


Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:58 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
Rock Theatre was a legitimate release (not a bootleg). It's one of the re-releases that other bands suffer from, but Genesis generally doesn't.

The track list is: "I Know What I Like", "Harold The Barrel", "Harlequin", "Watcher Of The Skies", "The Fountain Of Salmacis", and "Supper's Ready". All of them are the album versions, except "Watcher" which is the single version.

I bought this years ago just to get the single version of "Watcher", but I think I listened to it once.

Bizarrely, the Highland 1997 CD aptly entitled Cryme includes 5 of the 6 tracks from Rock Theatre (omitting only IKWIL). The label of Cryme calls these "alternate tracks" and "demos", but that's totally false. You can tell they are from RT based on the LP background noise (or so a fan with a better sound system than mine told me). Some of Highland's releases were quite good, but this one is ridiculous. (Cryme also includes four versions of "Happy the Man", three versions of "Silver Song", and two versions of "Only Your Love". Some of these are worth having, although they are available elsewhere as well; others are merely duplicates of each other with different lineages.)

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Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:46 am
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
Thanks, B5. Obviously the single version of Watcher is now on Archive 1 (I think), but it's good that it's not all album tracks. I'll also look for the original pressed version of Cryme. If anyone has a copy they'd like to trade away, let me know.

You mention that there was LP noise on Cryme -- does that mean that the Rock Theatre CD was a transfer from LP as well?

I'll file my copy of Rock Theatre with my compilations (the three different ones titled Turn It On Again, etc.) instead of my bootlegs.


Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:26 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
babylon5 wrote:
Rock Theatre was a legitimate release (not a bootleg). It's one of the re-releases that other bands suffer from, but Genesis generally doesn't.

The track list is: "I Know What I Like", "Harold The Barrel", "Harlequin", "Watcher Of The Skies", "The Fountain Of Salmacis", and "Supper's Ready". All of them are the album versions, except "Watcher" which is the single version.

I bought this years ago just to get the single version of "Watcher", but I think I listened to it once.

I bought the cassette copy of this many years ago, for the same reason as you. It was, at the time, the only place to find the single version of Watcher. As a student I was only listening to tapes anyway (because tapes and a tape player are considerably more portable than records and a record player!), so I occasionally listened to Rock Theatre simply because it was a different compilation!
The single version of Watcher later appeared on Archive Vol 1, of course.

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Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:29 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
Hmm, didn't know it was on cassette as well. Thanks for the info, Tulyar. :) I agree on the cassette thing, in fact, cassettes are another thing I'm starting to collect more, so here comes another new thread. ;)

I actually still have a 45 of Watcher, and I think it's a promo copy. I definitely have a LOT of catching up to do with my Genesis collection... there's a lot that I haven't bothered with since "the great purge". Now that supplies are dwindling (or, more accurately, people are unloading their stuff CHEAP), I'm back in collecting mode... though it's not nearly as important to me as it once was.


Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:59 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
dvdgenesis wrote:
You mention that there was LP noise on Cryme -- does that mean that the Rock Theatre CD was a transfer from LP as well?

I have never seen the Rock Theatre CD, and until your post I had no idea that it existed. (It seems like a really silly idea.) Cryme is dated 1997; what is the date of the RT CD?

I don't recall where I learned that Cryme was taken from Rock Theatre. It was a long time ago, so it was probably in alt.music.genesis or rec.arts.music.progressive back in the days that Usenet was still alive. And at the time, I had no idea that Rock Theatre had been released in cassette or CD format. So it's possible I misunderstood what was said. Right now, the only things I am certain of are (1) the fact that the final five tracks on Cryme are such an odd combination of songs, and happen to exactly match 5 of the 6 tracks on RT, is very solid evidence [but not deductive proof] that these were taken from RT, and (2) neither my tiny home stereo nor my car stereo are useful for hearing faint background noise.

There is certainly no loud LP noise -- crackles, pops, needles dropping -- on Cryme. But there is no loud LP noise on the CD of Jon Anderson's Animation, but the folks out there with good stereos (or with computerized sound analyzers of some sort) have conclusively shown that the Animation CD is an LP transfer. I have no idea how these things work. I can use the basic functions of Audacity and that's the limit of what I know about sound processing! People like TM are magic in my eyes....

dvdgenesis wrote:
I actually still have a 45 of Watcher, and I think it's a promo copy.

Coolness. I am not much of a collector in the strict sense; if I have a song in the best available sound quality, I don't care much about the packaging. (Aside from the gatefold Genesis and Yes LPs from 1970-1976.) Back in 1982 I saw a pristine copy of the "Happy the Man" single, with a picture of Gabriel in his black outfit waving his tambourine on the picture sleeve, at a record swap meet. The guy wanted $100 for it. I didn't pay it, but felt sad about it. I was quite happy a year later when I found the "Rarest Live" LP boot series, which had that song on it!

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Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:12 am
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
babylon5 wrote:
I have never seen the Rock Theatre CD, and until your post I had no idea that it existed. (It seems like a really silly idea.) Cryme is dated 1997; what is the date of the RT CD?


The disc label says "(P) (C) 1986"... I'm not sure when the LP was released, and I did notice an indication of a cassette release on the back of my LP, but no mention of a CD. I assume the LP was released before CD was invented, or at least became popular.

Actually, Gigantes Del Pop Vol. 24 was released on CD as well. I saw one once (at a record show, I think) but never plunked down the money for it. I would definitely like to find it on CD now. I have the cassette, but if I know something's available on CD, that's what I prefer.

babylon5 wrote:
I am not much of a collector in the strict sense; if I have a song in the best available sound quality, I don't care much about the packaging. (Aside from the gatefold Genesis and Yes LPs from 1970-1976.) Back in 1982 I saw a pristine copy of the "Happy the Man" single, with a picture of Gabriel in his black outfit waving his tambourine on the picture sleeve, at a record swap meet. The guy wanted $100 for it. I didn't pay it, but felt sad about it. I was quite happy a year later when I found the "Rarest Live" LP boot series, which had that song on it!


I was pretty much as you describe yourself from the time of "the great purge" right up to a few months ago. As long as I had the "star" version of every song, I was okay. I'm still that way to an extent, since I don't collect multiple copies of singles, etc. Hang In Long Enough is an exception, because one version contains Around The World In 80 Presets and the remixes, and another version contains That's How I Feel. I haven't bothered with the version with Separate Lives (Live), because I assume that's the same track from Serious Hits... LIVE. What I did start doing when the boxed sets came out was to make sure I had non-remixed versions of all the bonus tracks, so I have the 3" CD of the Spot The Pigeon EP for the original mix of Match Of The Day, as well as the "world" version of Three Sides Live for the original mix of Me And Virgil, as well as Disc 2 of the 1994 remaster of TSL so I could have non-remixed versions of the bonus live tracks. I still haven't bought the live CD boxed set, and I'm not sure I ever will. It would have to be really cheap or be bought with a gift card, etc. I think in the near future I might try to find a 1994 mini-LP version of TSL instead of just lumping Disc 2 in with my "world" version.

I really love Happy The Man... probably my favorite Gabriel-era non-album track. I read somewhere that for some reason that particular single is counterfeited a LOT, so definitely be careful if you decide to pick one up. I definitely plan to collect every Genesis single at some point, but again, just one example of each. Of course there's an exception to that as well... we've talked about the square inserts Japanese 45s have instead of picture sleeves, and I have purchased a few Japanese 45s in order to store just the insert in front of another import 45s, like a Holland pressing of Turn It On Again, for example.

Well, that's enough for one post... have more to report regarding my growing audio boot collection, but I'll save that for the next post.


Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:35 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
Okay, well I guess my acceptance of redundancy has finally kicked in, because my latest pressed CD boot acquisition is VERY similar to the last one I posted about.

This one is called GENESIS Live In U.S.A. 1982, so I have a bit more to go on with regard to date, but still no specific venue. Having listened to it, it seems clear that these are yet again the Nassau Coliseum performances, since it contains the same songs as the previous boot, albeit in a different order. This CD also separates them into 10 tracks rather than 14 (actually there were only 8 tracks on that CD, but 14 "songs" listed on the booklet). It also seems to be of slightly better quality and may have a bit less crowd noise.

I've decided not to worry about posting cover images, but if anyone is curious, I guess I can e-mail a scan. The cover for this one is a red-tinted early-'80s photo of Phil drumming, with an inset of the same photo over it. At the top it says GENESIS in blue letters with larger yellow lettering behind to give sort of a 3D effect, then below that LIVE IN U.S.A. 1982 appears. My copy came from Japan, but the disc label says it was produced by MY SOUND S.r.L. in Milan, Italy but the disc was manufactured in Israel. It was released on the International Pop label in 1994, and the "copyright" notice (what a joke) appears to be in Italian. The catalog number is INP010.

Even if nobody has any insight into this release, I'd just be curious to know how many other people own it. So far I'm making my choices in terms of how attractive I find the cover art, and I guess for CDs I may never listen to again that isn't such a bad way to prioritize. Since I now have two releases of essentially the same material, I may continue my run and look for other pressed boots of the same show(s). There are also two other discs that are parts 1 and 2 of a 1978 show, but since I already have BBC Rock Hour on CD-R (and I think it's the same Chicago performance as these other CDs), they're not a high priority. Also, I'd rather try to find different releases with unique styles of cover art, since the other International Pop releases have the same basic cover design, albeit with different photos.

Anyway, if anyone has any other International Pop or Mistral releases, I'd like to hear from you. I'm just curious to know how many different ones there are... we all know about Highland, but I'm curious about some of the lesser-known labels.


Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:00 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
At the risk of repeating what others have said, I'm positive that this set:

Quote:
Dodo
Abacab
Follow You Follow Me
No Reply At All
In The Cage
The Cinema Show
Afterglow
Duke's End
Behind The Lines
Misunderstanding
Man On The Corner
Turn It On Again
Dance On A Volcano
Los Endos

I don't have the date or venue for the gig, but apparently it was 1982. The CD was released in Germany in 1992 on the Mistral label.

is a splash together of Three Sides Live material (track 1-7, track 9-12) - that is, recorded in New York 29-11-1981 (except FYFM recorded in 80 but usually distributed with the others) - with some Lyceum Ballroom material (track 3, 8, 13-14) - that is, recorded in London 7-5-1980. The track called Duke's End might in fact be mislabeled and be some other track, so possibly all songs except FYFM is from the 81 gig, but that doesn't change the fact that tracks are from those two gigs.

To get the 1980 material, get the TM 30 year aniversary edition of the Lyceum Ballroom 7-5-80 concert. To get the others, get one of the numerours Pre-FM sources of the 29-11-81 material.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:13 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
kaspergm wrote:
At the risk of repeating what others have said...


Um, not a lot of people have replied, so your comments are VERY welcome. :)

Thanks for the info... that explains a lot, some of which I had kind of expected, but it's good to have independent verification. You're right about Duke's End... I think they somehow got confused, since it appears right before Behind The Lines and both tracks start the same way, so that was obviously a mistake.

I'm intrigued by the mix of performances, though... you mean this wouldn't be a single show from the TSL encore tour? Obviously if stuff like FYFM hadn't been performed on that tour, it definitely makes sense that it would have been from the previous tour. I have some Lyceum video footage, so I can try and match things up with that, and also I should download some audio boots with reliable date/venue information to see if I can nail down specifics on these tracks.

Overall, it's not of paramount importance... I just wanted everyone's general impressions of these releases, and it's great to hear more about where and when this material was originally performed.


Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:15 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
dvdgenesis wrote:
I'm intrigued by the mix of performances, though... you mean this wouldn't be a single show from the TSL encore tour? Obviously if stuff like FYFM hadn't been performed on that tour, it definitely makes sense that it would have been from the previous tour. I have some Lyceum video footage, so I can try and match things up with that, and also I should download some audio boots with reliable date/venue information to see if I can nail down specifics on these tracks.

No, apart from the Lyceum 80 track(s) sometimes being mixed in with the 81 stuff (as also seen on TSL), in fact the TSL show, which is commonly credited as being Nassau Coliseum, NYC, 29-11-1981, was not only recorded on that date - in fact, most of what's on TSL was actually recorded a month later in England, namely at the Birmingham NEC, on the 23-12-1981 show, the final night on the tour. This is well documented by comparing to the audience recording from that night, which shows a 100 % match to many of the cuts (I don't remember the details, but from memory I think that Dodo, Abacab, Turn It On Again and In The Cage / Afterglow was recorded in Birmingham, but don't take that as a fact, just to give you an impression).

There were, however, also being two shows recorded from the US leg of the tour and contributing to the TSL album - presumably the Nassau 29-11-1981 show (as being the common lable) and the Savoy Theatre 28-11-1981 show. We know from the Audience recordings that a few tracks were taken from Savoy (I think Me And Sarah Jane was from that night, as well as some of Man On The Corner that appeared on the video and later on Archive 2, although that one was doctored and is a whole story of its own) - again, we know that because of excellent audience recordings from the Savoy. However, no audience recordings actually exist from the Nassau show, so we can't really prove that the remaining tracks was recorded on that night - we can only assume that those that don't match Birmingham 23-12 or Savoy 28-11 was indeed recorded at Nassau. So far, I've never seen any claims of any tracks being identified as being from other known shows, so I think that is as credible a claim as any.


All this just to say that things are a lot more muddy than they sometimes appear! During TM's recent remaster of the Houston 78 show, he found indications that some of that show must have been recorded in Europe! The Genesis management themselves claim that the version of Fountain Of Salmacis that apears on TSL was recorded in Houston, and although we don't have an audience recording from Houston, the fact that FOS was not played a single (audience recorded) night on the US leg of the ATTWT tour suggests that this would clearly be wrong - most probably FOS was taken from one of the Europe nights and mixed in with the Houston stuff, and later people simply forgot that this had happened, or the ones that were aware are no longer associated with the band. Nick told us when working on the Seconds Out remaster that Supper's Ready on that album is actually spliced together from 3 or 4 different nights - so yes, cut-and-splice jobs did happen when making live albums. For the same reason, you'll find that the TSL version of FYFM doesn't exactly match the Lyceum version - the common belief is that the end got sort of re-mixed for the live album to better match how the studio version goes. I never checked that myself, so I only have others' word for that.

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Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:05 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
Awesome info, thanks! :) I was assuming that the tracks on these two bootlegs were just leaked soundboards, and that everything came from one show. I knew TSL, SO and other live albums were a hodgepodge, but I didn't think that much effort went into boots. I had assumed this stuff all came from the Nassau show because of the similarity to TSL, but maybe these tracks are just ripped right off from the live album. I wonder about Dance On A Volcano/Los Endos, though... I think it was played on the TSL encore tour, so I was assuming that these boots were made from soundboard tapes that had been used as source material for TSL, or at least copies of them, and that section had just been left off the album for time reasons.

Very enlightening... I've never paid much attention to audio boots, so it's an exciting new world for me!


Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:47 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
Well the work didn't so much go into the bootlegs, as it did to the radio shows. The bootlegs probably just contains what was broadcasted on the radio. It's not always clear who decided which tracks went out to the radio - in some cases it seems to have been the radio program responsible for recording the shows (like the King Biscuit shows), while in other cases it has probably been someone working for the band (thus, it would be reasonable to assume that when FYFM from the 80 tour ended up being broadcasted with the 81 stuff, and it also appeared on the official TSL release, it was the same person who mixed the raw material for the radio and the stuff for the album, i.e. someone from within the band's team).

Btw. notice that nothing of this stuff comes from the TSL Encore tour. The TSL encore tour took place in 82 after the release of TSL, and hence cannot possibly have contributed to those recordings. However, there have been radio broadcasts of Dance On A Volcano / Los Endos from both the Duke (80) tour (namely London Lyceum, and Sheffield Music Hall) as well as from Abacab (81) tour, which was the tour that gave most of the material for TSL (one of the three venues mentioned above, not sure which).

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:26 pm
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Post Re: want your opinions on various bootlegs
Point taken... it's just that one of these boots lists the date as 1982. Not that the date (not even the year) can really be trusted on boots, but that's just why I was leaning toward the TSL encore instead of the Abacab tour itself. Of course these recordings sound VERY much like the TSL album and video, so I guess it's more likely to be a ripoff of some radio show made to promote the album, or perhaps what might have been a full "four-sided" version of TSL, which included Dance On A Volcano/Los Endos from the Lyceum. Radio shows are another thing I'm developing an interest in, so maybe when I start looking into those, I'll find one that's an obvious source for these boots.


Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:05 pm
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