View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:51 pm



Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
 Printed inner sleeves 
Author Message
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:24 pm
Posts: 449
Location: Wales
Post Printed inner sleeves
Seems a bit quiet here, as DVDGenesis mentioned on another thread, so I thought I'd mention something I was wondering about.

Something I've loved about Genesis records (vinyl) is the printed inner sleeve. Often this would have the lyrics, or pictures on it. I was thinking about this the other day, and wondering when it began.
The 'inner sleeve' is mainly for protection of the record, especially if you slide it into the outer sleeve with the gap at the top, so that the record can't easily accidentally fall out. Traditionally records had paper inner sleeves, sometimes with a polythene liner which would be attracted to the static on the vinyl and reduce the amount of dust that would be attracted.

I suppose it might vary from country to country, etc, but here's what I think is a correct list of Genesis vinyl inner sleeves:
FGTR - paper inner, no lyrics.
Trespass - gatefold sleeve, paper inner, no lyrics.
NC - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside, paper inner.
Foxtrot - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside, paper inner.
SEBTP - paper inner, no lyrics. (This is where I get doubtful, because over the years I have seen a brown printed inner on an import, and even a gatefold sleeve with the lyrics. Any comments?)

Lamb - gatefold sleeve with story inside. Lyrics printed on inner sleeves.
ATOTT - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside. Printed inner with pictures (a kind of 'after' for the pictures on the outer sleeve)
W&W - Lyrics printed on the inner sleeve (more about this below)
ATTWT - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside. Paper inner(?)
Duke - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside. Paper inner(?)
Abacab - printed inner sleeve with photo of band, no lyrics.
Genesis - lyrics printed on inner sleeve.
Invisible Touch - lyrics printed on inner sleeve.
WCD - Double record, no gatefold, lyrics printed on inner sleeve.
CAS - don't know (I've never seen a vinyl version)

My original copies of W&W and Abacab were bought second hand and had a paper inner. When I discovered that there were actually printed versions, I wrote to Charisma Records in Wardour St to ask about it. And to my amazement they sent me, free of charge, a brand new W&W printed inner sleeve. And they explained in their letter that there was no lyric sheet produced with Abacab, but instead sent me a photocopy (from where?) of a lyric sheet for the album! :D

If I'm right, Genesis first produced a printed inner sleeve in 1974. What about other bands? I think ELO's Face The Music (1975) had one, but I'm not sure before that.

_________________
Old Henry walked past the pet shop that was never open, into the park which was never closed...


Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:37 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 12:50 am
Posts: 316
Location: Washington, DC
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
Tulyar wrote:
I suppose it might vary from country to country, etc, but here's what I think is a correct list of Genesis vinyl inner sleeves:
FGTR - paper inner, no lyrics.
Trespass - gatefold sleeve, paper inner, no lyrics.
NC - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside, paper inner.
Foxtrot - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside, paper inner.
SEBTP - paper inner, no lyrics. (This is where I get doubtful, because over the years I have seen a brown printed inner on an import, and even a gatefold sleeve with the lyrics. Any comments?)

Lamb - gatefold sleeve with story inside. Lyrics printed on inner sleeves.
ATOTT - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside. Printed inner with pictures (a kind of 'after' for the pictures on the outer sleeve)
W&W - Lyrics printed on the inner sleeve (more about this below)
ATTWT - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside. Paper inner(?)
Duke - gatefold sleeve with lyrics inside. Paper inner(?)
Abacab - printed inner sleeve with photo of band, no lyrics.
Genesis - lyrics printed on inner sleeve.
Invisible Touch - lyrics printed on inner sleeve.
WCD - Double record, no gatefold, lyrics printed on inner sleeve.
CAS - don't know (I've never seen a vinyl version)

....

If I'm right, Genesis first produced a printed inner sleeve in 1974. What about other bands? I think ELO's Face The Music (1975) had one, but I'm not sure before that.

I think it depends on what year you were buying these.

As I recall, I bought my Genesis LPs in 1981 and 1982. I was living in Los Angeles, and we had some cool record stores with several racks of "import" records. So I bought the U.K. version of Genesis' early albums, since they had more stuff in the package. (I say "U.K.", but until your post it never occurred to me that perhaps there were different versions of these LPs in different parts of the U.K., or in different eras.)

The American Trespass was a simple outer sleeve, no lyrics. My U.K. Trespass had a gatefold sleeve with the picture of the knife in the tree. The sleeve that held the actual record was just plain paper, but there was also included an insert -- a square single sheet, the size of an LP sleeve, on glossy paper, printed on one side. It included the lyrics and a tiny bit of additional artwork.

I have always assumed that album packaging starts off good and gets worse and worse as the years go by, because the printer doesn't want to be bothered reprinting all the inserts. If that theory is true, then this lyric insert must have been in the original 1970 printing. (I don't know how common square inserts were. I once bought a Japanese pressing of The Yes Album that had one, but offhand I don't recall any others besides Trespass and SEBTP, described below.)

NC and Foxtrot, amazingly, were out of print in America, although years later I verified that they had been published with simple outer sleeves and no lyrics. I bought the U.K. versions which were the same as yours.

The American SEBTP was a simple outer sleeve and a plain white inner sleeve. I didn't get the U.K. version until much later, and that was the same except that it had a dark brown insert with the lyrics, and Armando Gallo's photo of the band in New York City. However, I agree with you that there did exist a gatefold outer sleeve version of this LP, because there's a picture of this version in Gallo's Genesis book. Perhaps an earlier U.K. version? or a long-out-of-print American version? or the Italian version?

The American versions of the rest of the catalog matches exactly how you describe them.

An odd side-point: The text of the Lamb story inside the gatefold was typeset differently in the U.K. and U.S. versions. If you recall, at the very end, after "Copyright 1974 Peter Gabriel", the story simply begins again from the beginning -- as if the printer had no idea how else to fill up the missing space. But the U.S. and U.K. versions used very slightly different font sizes, and so the story in one version takes more space than the other -- and the final repetition of the story ends up cutting off at a different point.

(Also, for reasons I have never understood, the U.K. version of the Lamb uses the song name "Carpet Crawl", while the American version uses "The Carpet Crawlers".)

_________________
- babylon5


Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:01 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:32 am
Posts: 20
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
I'm in UK and a school mate played me sebtp when it come out and it definately had a lyric insert inside, I think brown like Babylon5 describes. I believe it had a funny pound note with it also! I'm sure it has never had an official gatefold release here.


Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:22 pm
Profile YIM

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 474
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
Thanks for getting this discussion going, Tulyar... a nice one for "OCD" fans like myself. ;)

I will have to check some of my albums when I get home tonight. I too like the printed LP inserts, and I wonder if they are reproduced with the "mini-LP" releases. I know that the remaster booklets do a GREAT job of preserving that original inner sleeve art, and trying to squeeze all the content from the booklet back down to fit on a single "mini-LP" sleeve would render it nearly unreadable, not to mention losing a lot of the visual impact.

I also remember not realizing at first that different versions of each album existed, at least in terms of packaging. I had Buddah reissues of early albums like Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, as well as the MCA reissue of Trespass, so it was only later when I learned exactly how much I was missing out on. None of the copies I had featured the original gatefold jackets, but I have managed to find gatefold copies of at least the first two since then.

As for the inserts, I know that a LOT of Japanese releases, be it on LP, 45, CD, etc. tend to have square inserts packaged with generic sleeves. Not sure exactly why this is... I guess it could be that printing on flat inserts is cheaper, or maybe they wanted to avoid having artwork and lyrics on something that the record itself could damage, like the inner sleeve, and instead printed it on a separate insert. That way, you could replace the sleeve if it got damaged but keep the insert. I may be way off base here... just a theory, and definitely an advantage to Japanese releases and others that do the same thing, even if not done for that particular purpose.

And B5, you assume correctly... the first printing (or two) gets the most extravagant treatment, with stickers, inserts, etc. but then later pressings scale back. Seems a bit backward since later pressings are done when the album has already earned money, but that's typically how it works. Not a hard and fast rule by any means, and it's not always obvious which is a first pressing and/or more rare and valuable (the blue vinyl vs. black copies of Elvis's Moody Blue album are a good example).

Great thread... I'll be back to bore everyone more if I find out anything interesting with regard to my own collection. One thought that does come to mind and might bear discussion is the fact that U.S. copies of 45s have thin paper sleeves, and their import counterparts have heavier sleeves, whereas with LPs and especially 12" singles, it's the opposite, with the U.S. having the heavy cardboard ones and other territories having lighter ones, pretty much the same weight as the 45 sleeves. At least I find that interesting. ;)


Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:28 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 12:50 am
Posts: 316
Location: Washington, DC
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
You mentioned 45s... reminds me of another US/UK difference, although this is probably known to all of you. When "Deep in the Motherlode" was released as a single in the USA, it was retitled "Go West Young Man". I remember almost buying it until I realized I already had it on the LP. (Besides, I never liked that song anyway.)

In California, the record store experience changed radically on January 1, 1981. That's when the state made it illegal for record stores to sell bongs, wrapping papers, and other pot-friendly paraphernalia. I was in eleventh grade, and absolutely did not do drugs, and rock'n'roll record stores had always seemed a bit scary to me. But after 1/1/81, all the pot paraphernalia was relocated to head shops, so the record stores were just for LPs and 45s and cassettes and posters of rock bands.

dvdgenesis wrote:
... and it's not always obvious which is a first pressing and/or more rare and valuable (the blue vinyl vs. black copies of Elvis's Moody Blue album are a good example).

Around 1982 there was a brief "limited release" of the Beatles' White Album, Red Album, and Blue Album on white, red, and blue vinyl, respectively. They were very cool. They even used real vinyl, which by then was used only in Japan, with very few exceptions (such as "Half Speed Master" audiophile LPs).

_________________
- babylon5


Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:07 am
Profile

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 474
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
Speaking of 45s, another thing that I find interesting is that while U.S. 45s have the large hole, most 45s in other parts of the world (except perhaps France, and I think South Africa) have either a small hole or a "punch out" where the small hole and surrounding area can be removed if you want the larger hole. That's another thing that draws me to import 45s... as a kid, I'd often buy "little LPs" from stores or book clubs at school that were 7" but still had the small hole, so when I noticed that 45s from outside the U.S. were often like that, I was hooked. Between that and the thicker sleeves, imports just seem cooler to me.

Having looked over my LP collection after first reading this thread, I found it's pretty sad. I do have gatefold editions of Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, a jem import of SEBTP and a UK pressing of Abacab, but aside from that I just have U.S. LPs of Duke, Wind & Wuthering and I think TLLDOB is around somewhere (I know I at least have the separate "A Story By Peter Gabriel" insert). Given that the new booklets preserve the inner sleeve artwork and the discs carry over the label art, I'm seriously thinking of selling my remaining LPs. I'll be keeping the many import & U.S. 12" singles I've accumulated, though.

As for ATTWT, that was the first album I heard in its entirety, at least aside from Invisible Touch, which was new at the time. My math teacher was a Genesis fan as well, and lent me her vinyl copy. I didn't like the album at all, aside from Follow You, Follow Me (which I had played at my wedding), and Many Too Many, both of which I was familiar with from The Videos I & II but weren't favorites by any means. Of course then she gave me an old copy of the CVC Collectibles catalog, and I started learning about all the minutiae (aka OCDness) of record collecting (ss = seam split, tsoc = timing strip on cover, etc.) and I was in LOVE! Not with the teacher, mind you, just Genesis and record collecting in general.

I don't think I had the same experience with record shops, but in Virginia there were still some stores (a leather shop in particular) where that kind of thing was sold. I was actually never allowed to go to arcades, so that's another lost love of mine that I obsess over. I definitely hate pandering to the lowest common denominator (i.e., a "family" film isn't really for the whole family, it's just aimed at the youngest kid in the family), but when kids are not allowed or just plain scared of going into a place because of completely unrelated (okay, that may be debatable) "adult" merchandise, someone needs to step in and correct the problem.

I quite enjoy reading about how others got started on Genesis, and collecting in general, as well as what people prefer in terms of collecting and what they look for. With local record shows being all but entirely replaced by eBay, there's just not the sense of community that once existed. Bravo to Simon for keeping this place going... it's the next best thing! :)


Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:45 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:24 pm
Posts: 449
Location: Wales
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
Some really interesting comments here! :D
What is the earliest printed inner sleeve anyone has by any band?
I've mentioned the first Genesis one being The Lamb, and ELO's being Face the Music.
Has anyone got one from pre-1974? Am I right in thinking Dark Side of the Moon had lyrics printed inside the gatefold sleeve, and had a paper inner?

Ooh, hang on, what about Brain Salad Surgery in 1973?

_________________
Old Henry walked past the pet shop that was never open, into the park which was never closed...


Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:02 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 474
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
I agree... interesting comments. I wonder though if we're getting a bit outside the scope of the forum by involving other bands in this. Of course I myself made the comment about Moody Blue by Elvis, but that was just an example where the apparently "special" blue vinyl release is actually much more common and less valuable than the "plain" black version.

Not trying to be a genital organ... just thinking out loud... or rather... typing. ;)


Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:35 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 474
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
By the way, not sure if this is what you're asking, but inner sleeves from waaay back have had advertisements for other releases from the same record company on them instead of just being plain white. As for when they became the integral part of the album's packaging that Genesis and many other bands have made them, I couldn't say for sure. If we still had any, ahem, record stores around here, I could go find out. Guess I gotta hit the flea market this weekend. ;)


Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:39 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 12:50 am
Posts: 316
Location: Washington, DC
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
Tulyar wrote:
What is the earliest printed inner sleeve anyone has by any band?

Are you asking about our personal collections, or about when this started?

Wikipedia's Album cover article has a good history, but it doesn't answer all your questions.

  • With regard to outer sleeves (a.k.a. album covers), the modern format was created by Columbia Records in 1938 or 1939.
  • With regard to miscellaneous inserts, the article mentions several, including the cardboard cut-outs in Sergeant Pepper (1967) and a poster in The Band's Stage Fright (1970). It doesn't mention square inserts containing lyrics, but there's no way that the unknown band Genesis' 1970 album could have been the first album to include such a thing.
  • With regard to printed inner sleeves, dvdgenesis pointed out that the earliest ones were advertisements. At some later point, Decca used plain blue inner sleeve for stereo records and plain red ones for mono. But when did inner sleeves first become a place for the band to put lyrics and/or additional artwork related to the album? This is your question, and the Wikipedia article doesn't answer it. But I would speculate that this didn't begin until the end of the 1960s, because I don't think the Beatles ever did this, and they surely had the resources to do so if they had wanted to.

_________________
- babylon5


Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:39 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:24 pm
Posts: 449
Location: Wales
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
babylon5 wrote:
Are you asking about our personal collections, or about when this started?

Either, or both! The answer to the first gives us a clue to the answer to the second! :D
For instance, has anyone got in their collection an album that came out in 72 or 73 that has lyrics and/or additional artwork printed on the inner sleeve?
It's also curious that Genesis stopped doing it for a while - ATTWT and Duke both having plain paper inner sleeves.

_________________
Old Henry walked past the pet shop that was never open, into the park which was never closed...


Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:30 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:39 pm
Posts: 356
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
I have an album from 1973 with inner sleeve artwork - Pink Floyd: "A Nice Pair" (original pressing with the 'Dr. Phang' cover)

Each inner sleeve of this doule album set has monochrome images of the covers for Saucerful of Secrets and Piper at the Gates of Dawn.

I'm trying to think if I have any other albums with inner sleeves....


EDIT: Another from '73: Charisma's own Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handerchief

_________________
http://genesislive.ning.com/profile/DavidRaphael


Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:13 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 474
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
dR, Matching Tie And Handkerchief and Instant Record Collection are two of the gems of my vinyl collection... the latter for the fold-out "stack of records", but the former for not only the die-cut jacket and printed inner sleeve, but also the famous "double-groove" on the second side.

Great info by the way, B5! :)

For some reason I was thinking that Duke and ATTWT had printed inner sleeves, but as they're both gatefold covers, I think that's what I was thinking of.


Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:00 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 474
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
Getting back to the "thicker sleeves" thing, I noticed that my Japanese pressing of Seconds Out has really thick inner sleeves, almost the thickness of an import 12" outer sleeve. They're also completely printed with photos, band and crew information, production credits, etc. so I guess it seems that Japanese releases DO sometimes have printed sleeves rather than just inserts. I think it also has some sort of insert booklet as well.

As a matter of fact, I think this is actually the second Japanese pressing of Seconds Out I've owned... I seem to recall having one at some point where it was still a 2-record jacket, but it wasn't gatefold... both records just slid into the sleeve, and there may have been a cardboard divider in the center, but the jacket didn't open up. I don't think that one had printed inner sleeves either, just plastic or rice paper ones.


Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:07 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 474
Post Re: Printed inner sleeves
While we're discussing the minutiae of collecting, what is everyone's opinion of the rear "j-card" insert on CDs? Do most of you keep your CDs in the jewel cases, or do you use some kind of sleeves or binders? Personally, I use Univenture ViewPaks, and most of the time the j-card is completely redundant, both in terms of information and artwork, so I throw those away. I do have some CDs that are "stuck" since the back insert is the only place the track list appears, and I plan to start using DiscSox for those.

Would love to hear from other collectors on how they handle storing their CDs and other media.


Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:59 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.